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Post by Waverley on Oct 12, 2009 16:02:57 GMT 1
Andy I sat in front of these guys when we played Barcelona at Ibrox a few years ago and met a group of Hindu boys who sit in the Copland Front when we played against Fulham a couple of seasons ago...nice group of guys and funny to hear them shouting on the Rangers. When asked 'where do you come fae' they always reply 'Govan ya numpty where do you think'.
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Post by Waverley on Oct 12, 2009 16:10:43 GMT 1
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Post by ianofoldham on Oct 12, 2009 16:16:50 GMT 1
I thought H..UNS were Germans? ;D ;D Damned Bosch Aghhhhhhh!!!!! I can't even use the word D>A>M>N>E>D
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patrick
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Post by patrick on Oct 12, 2009 19:03:39 GMT 1
ianofoldham I used to drink in the white horse in the 60s but it wasn't me who called you that name or my da ;D
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Post by Waverley on Oct 12, 2009 20:15:04 GMT 1
I said that to lighten things up because things were starting to get out of hand, you don't have to sing if you don't want to, its not my fault you cant sing charlie, anyway don't start on me, I remember not that long ago people jumped on me, for saying a lot less than you have said, I know you say things to get a reaction, from people well you have got your reaction, why don't we move on? First things first Patrick only me or Carol have the authority to decide when things get out of hand on these boards...and the only 'prophet and wise man' we listen to is BillyDan. ;D And as for starting on you I have no intention of doing so and the only reason that anyone jumped on you previously was the fact that they thought that you were out of order re your PM comments to a female member of this board...and all posters on here since have been warned to remember who they are posting their replies to - if it is a woman or an elderly person then respect is the order of the day. Reactionary - yes that is the normal word that people use in regards to me when they send each other PM's re little old me no doubt you have been told the story about the Irish (Catholics) and the Second World War ... now I wonder who has been talking about me to you - usual suspects no doubt. I can assure you Patrick that I have mellowed since I set up this board and my enemies have been disappointed that I have not taken the route that they predicted when they learned I was leaving other boards to run my own. ;D They stalk me to see what I am saying and then send each other PM's 'look what he is saying now'...what a shower of wankers. The good thing about this board is we are not financially dependent on anyone and if people leave they can do so without feeling aggrieved at the fact that they have donated financially to our board. As one irate ex=member once posted ' I do not need to come on here and be insulted' - she was told to go elsewhere and pay for the priviledge. ;D We will not move on until the last post is posted on this particular subject as it is quite topical and yes controversial...but it will not be allowed to get out of hand with personal insults and snide remarks and hopefully it will act as a catalyst for an ongoing debate re immigration into this country.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2009 20:20:30 GMT 1
or an elderly person then respect is the order of the day.
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Post by Waverley on Oct 12, 2009 20:23:31 GMT 1
Your still a young thing Andy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2009 20:31:45 GMT 1
Your still a young thing Andy. I was much older then I'm younger than that now. Large drink to the first person who can tell me who said that.! Tam won the last one with Emmy Lou Harris and the debt has been honoured !!
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Post by Waverley on Oct 12, 2009 20:43:23 GMT 1
I will not cheat and google it...I don't know. Oh wise old Owl ye.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2009 20:46:44 GMT 1
I will not cheat and google it...I don't know. Oh wise old Owl ye. Clue. He is a genius ! And only Caterina and I talk about him.
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patrick
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Post by patrick on Oct 12, 2009 20:57:17 GMT 1
I appologised when I was told I was out of order to the keelies concerned, or did you forget,as far as i am concerned that was the end of it. nobody has been sending me private messages about you, irish catholics w.w.2 or anything else, If i have anything to say about you, I will say it to you not behind your back.
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Post by frankie on Oct 12, 2009 21:07:05 GMT 1
i think some people just use all this racist stuff as a excuse i was in the pub at the weekend with my mate who was a bit drunk this black guy comes in comes over to our table starts talking my mate asked if he was american he went mental but he did dress like an american rapper skip hat shiny bomber etc anyway one word bothered another till he shouts is it cause im black i still cant see why he would think that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2009 21:14:18 GMT 1
Strange Frankie !
What Area was this ?
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Post by Waverley on Oct 12, 2009 21:18:38 GMT 1
OK Patrick I apologise to you. It just seemed to me that your post had a familiar ring to it...maybe I am getting as paranoid as the rest of you.
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patrick
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Post by patrick on Oct 12, 2009 22:34:41 GMT 1
no problem charlie
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Post by thecaltondefender on Oct 12, 2009 22:41:15 GMT 1
OK Patrick I apologise to you. It just seemed to me that your post had a familiar ring to it...maybe I am getting as paranoid as the rest of you. turn off the xfactor & get oot own a saturday nite,ur para problem will be solved. ho ho ho
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2009 9:16:13 GMT 1
I will continue to read this thread (as a form of masochism ;D) but will desist from posting on it.
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Post by Waverley on Oct 13, 2009 10:58:27 GMT 1
Be truthful Caterina you are loving every bit of this ... we have only opened up a world that you thought had disappeared for ever under the pressure from the modern day PC Brigade.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2009 12:01:37 GMT 1
I will continue to read this thread (as a form of masochism ;D) but will desist from posting on it. Come on Caterina. ! Large Drink still up for grabs
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Post by Waverley on Oct 13, 2009 14:00:31 GMT 1
OK folks found the article in the bin...it makes interesting reading and covers a few points that we seem to have missed like women's rights and the threat from immigrant cultures that come to these shores.
'Are Britain and Europe ,being swamped, over-run, defeated by a wave of mostly Muslim immigrants and 'their descendants'? Or are Europe's ethnic problems the figment of a febrile political imagination - something created by racism, dishonesty and manipulation by extremist parties such as the BNP? Those are not the only two possibilities, of course, although a lot , of people behave as if they are.
Both sides will take lots of fodder for their arguments from a study released last week by the highly reliable Pew Forum On Religion And Public Life. According to the report, there are now 1.6 billion Muslims, a quarter of the world's population.
And they are distributed in surprising ways - there are more Muslims in Germany than in Lebanon,for example. Recent projections by the British Government show the population rising to 71 million within 20 year, due mainly to immigration.
But Europe's '(and Britain's) problems with Muslim migration are not mostly demographic: The Pew study shows the world's Christian population is growing too, to 2.25 billion. It is possible, though, to have grave problems with immigration that do not involve either the wipe-out of a culture or the disappearance of a population.
Europe opened the door to mass immigration in the Fifties and discovered - as the United States did before it that it is impossible to open that door just a fraction. Immigration, though intended as a solution to a short-term labour crisis, has become, without anyone particularly wanting it to be, a permanent feature of the landscape.
One of the most amazing statistics in the history of European immigration is that the number of foreign residents in Germany rose steadily between 1971 and 2000 - from three million to about 7.5 million - but the number of employed 'foreIgners did not budge. It stayed rock-steady at around two million.'
Multi-ethnic societies can be good societies. But the transition puts a strain on institutions, on trust in government, and on a sense of identity. .
Not every society makes that transition successfully. In my book, Reflections On The Revolution In - Europe, I tried to describe how this process is working - or more often, not working.
Revolution is not too strong a word .
It well describes what occurred in America between 1840 and 1925, when millions of Catholic immigrants arrived, transforming a largely Protestant society.
The need to accommodate them made the United States replace 'one kind of society with another. We may like the result, but it would have been absurd to expect those born into pre-immigration 19th Century USA to rejoice at the disruption.
However the transition has given America an edge in the present era of mass migrations. That is not America's only advantage, of course. The 'tone' of current US immigration is set by various Latin American cultures; that of European immigration is set by various Muslim cultures.
The cultural peculiarities of Latin- American immigrants generally appear to Americans as antiquated versions of their own. .
Latinos speak a different (European) first language; the main language, American schoolchildren study, and which immigrant families inevitably abandon for English by the second generation.
They also have less money, higher labour-force participation, more authoritarian family structures, lower divorce rates" more frequent church attendance, lousier diets and higher rates of military enlistment than native-born Americans. Sociologists compare them to early 20th Century Italian immigrants.
Mass Hispanic immigration can disrupt local habits and put strains on budgets - the impending bankruptcy of California is a cautionary tale - but it needs no fundamental reform of America's culture or institutions. On balance it may strengthen them.
Islam is different. Living with Muslim cultures requires larger adjustments, and they touch deeper, more' essential parts of European Culture.
This kind of change needs to be ' considered' when we talk about the costs and benefits of immigration. We tend to say immigrants and their descendants will bring us so much in tax revenue and 'they're going to cost us so much in schooling. But we also need to consider the cost paid in the form of institutional re-arrangements and in rights. Nowhere are these adjustments trickier than in questions of family, marriage, gender and sexuality. Protecting women's rights when you're dealing with a variety of cultures requires a lot more State interference than when there is rough agreement on the rules. Traditional Islam is not compatible with modern European hedonism . and feminism. Europeans perceive it as a threat that must be managed.
Of course, Christianity is just as much at odds with the world of disco.And not all Islam is traditional - Muslim cultures vary. But this variety creates as many problems as it solves.
Consider female circumcision, common in Muslim countries such as Somalia and Sudan.,A study by a Dutch university found this mutilation is widespread among Europeans of East African descent. So What does Sweden - which has a relaxed attitude towards sexuality but also a lot of female circumcision - do?
Nyamko Sabuni is the Burundian - born Swedish Minister for Integration and Gender Equality - her title alone gives an idea of how important a battleground feminism is in countries of heavy immigration . She called for gynaecological inspections of all schoolgirls in Sweden - not just Muslims, since this would violate equal treatment, but all girls. This approach was rejected. But the fact it was, even proposed at the highest levels of government is shocking.
Fifty years ago if a politician had suggested that parents should be required to subject their daughters to an intimate Government monitored strip search the public would have reeled in horror.
We can applaud the seriousness of Ms Sabuni, but her suggestion revealed the strain on the country's constitutional order in the face of immigration.
In the Nineties, Denmark lost control of its immigration policy almost completely. One problem was a set of guidelines on asylum that overwhelmed the country's bureaucracy. Another was marriage migration. The great majority of Danes of non- Western background married people from their ancestral countries, and the figure was even higher for those from Muslim countries.
This was seen as a threat as it made chain migration possible, Where a spouse uses his or her newly acquired "citizenship to bring in, extended families. It also showed that many people Who held Danish' passports did not fully think of themselves as Danes. Denmark had to act, but it was hard to do so in a way that would not be xenophobic.
In 2001 it passed a law called the Aliens Act. Citizens under the age of 24 who marry spouses from outside of the European Union are not allowed, ' except in' special cases, to reside - permanently in the country. So Denmark succeeded in stemming the implantation of Musllm culture on its territory , within five years only a third of foreign-background Danes were marrying abroad.
But there was a high price, and the price; was paid by all citizens in rights. The right to live in your town country after marriage was no longer self evident.
There has also been huge controversy in France over Muslim schoolgirls wearing traditional veils. A government commission recommended banning 'conspicuous religious symbols' from schools and other institutions - just headscarves but also large crosses. Again, the price of managing cultural diversity got paid in the form of rights.
These changes appear-trivial, but add them up over the years and you, have a different society.
So why aren't they discussed more openly? During the US demographic revolution of a century ago Americans showed a burning curiosity about the question 'What kind of country is this turning into?' which they poured into books, pamphlets and public meetings.
Such 'conversations are harder under the prevailing European reticence. But if you can't talk openly, people will lack information. People who lack information fear the worst. People who fear the worst act irresponsibly. Discussing immigration and its consequences openly is not rude. It is necessary to lower the temperature of the debate.
Reflections On The Revolution In Europe, by Christopher Caldwell, is published by Allen Lane priced £14.99. To order your copy for £12.99 inc p&p call The Review Bookstore on 0845 155 0713.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2009 14:45:37 GMT 1
An interesting " Paper " Charlie ,I have read tracts of it in other publications and am familiar with the demographics and stats.
Howevr to be honest I have not read or digested every part of it.
I will give it some research before commenting further .
Good Post.
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Post by Waverley on Oct 15, 2009 9:20:50 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 10:51:05 GMT 1
Bought my first Poppy today from the local Post Office where they were proudly displayed on the PO counter and the general store counter.
Had the usual Banter with the two guys who run it kidding that they were a bit early with them as they will probably be on commission. !
I say " First " as I always loose them and end up buying about 6 so told them " I'll be back " !!
These guys are Muslims.
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Post by Waverley on Oct 15, 2009 11:03:33 GMT 1
There are many British born Muslims in the British Army AndyMo... sadly they have been targeted by Muslim extremists in these islands. Only last year their plan to kidnap and behead a young Muslim serving in the British Army from his home in the Midlands was revealed at the last minute by our security forces.
Me personally I will support any young soldier who wears the British Army Uniform against any extremists or potential terrorists whether they be Muslim , Jewish , Catholic or Protestant. We often moan about our lot in this country but by Christ it would be worse if we didn't have a standing Army to protect what civil liberties we do have...alas our enemies within our country tend to hide behind the very same democracy our Armed Forces try to protect.
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patrick
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Post by patrick on Oct 15, 2009 18:12:48 GMT 1
theres another bit of controversey today I read, because vogue magazine put brown make-up, on the face and body of a white model, they are being called racist when is this nonsence, going to stop?
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Post by thecaltondefender on Oct 15, 2009 18:21:53 GMT 1
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