|
Post by antsplan on Sept 21, 2009 23:59:31 GMT 1
Hi all, first post. Thanks for having me.
I was directed here from the GP board as they reckon I may get more info here. Is this even the correct section to post in ?
Ok here goes, I have Charlies book on Old Parkhead and its the only reference I have been able to find for the Scabby Lawn, as my family call it (although I see its Loan in the book). My family lived there for years and my wee 92 year old granny returned there in the late 80's (albeit to more modern housing).
Here is what I have:
It was tenement blocks 191, 197, 203 Tollcross Rd (across from the tram depot as it was at the time). It was a block of flats unfinished at the time of an industrial dispute and 'scab' labour was brought in from Ireland to finish it off.
Adaline reckons 'Scabby Lawn' was daubed on the walls and the name stuck.
I'm interested to know anything more about it please ?
What was this industrial dispute and when ?
Who was the landowner/contractor ?
Where were the 'scab' workers from, which parts of Ireland ? The six counties or the Free State ?
I'm told (by perhaps an unreliable source) that these workers were mainly presbyterian - any truth in this ?
Did these men stay on in Glasgow ? Were they housed in the Parkhead Model (I have assumed this from Charlies book, perhaps incorrectly ?).
Any accounts of how the men were treated for being 'scabs' ?
Any good photos of the Tenements ?
I'd love to hear any information you may have no matter how little, I'm researching my family tree and this info would be invaluable to me to help put some context around what was a large part of my family history.
One other smaller query:
I have a snippet of info which suggests that the 9 water towers in Glasgow were paired with planets in our solar system with the Cranhill tower being named after Neptune. (A wee bit of an issue now given the status of Pluto ;D). Anyway, not a single person I have spoken with has ever heard of this and I am unable to confirm or get the names of the other pairings. I have a call out to Cathy McMaster but i thought I'd try here also. Incidentally my source is an Architectural Review paper for which I am unable to identify the original author of.
I've also just noticed that you have a section on war graves and are looking for some images of those in the East End. I'll be happy to supply images for any that you are missing. I'm a photographer and have a keen interest in all things East End. I'll get started on this tonight and fill in the blanks when I have time.
cheers
Anthony
|
|
|
Post by Waverley on Sept 22, 2009 7:16:49 GMT 1
Once again Anthony welcome. In Scotland a 'loan' sometimes pronounced 'lawn' was a stretch of common land which was usually a common thoroughfare leading to a meadow or field where cattle grazed in this case the bit of land in Beattock Street as we know it today...which incidentally was later to become Parkhead Juniors ground after they moved from their original home in Camlachie.
It is difficult to say when the 'scab labour' was brought in to complete the building of the tenements but it has always been part of Parkhead folk-lore and some old Parkheidians still refer to that area as such...by the way who is or was your granny.
I would have imagined that the strike=breakers would have been from Ireland prior to the formation of Northern Ireland as a Province in the 1920's so it is difficult to establish where the labourers came from in the island or what religion they were...I would imagine that they were already resident in the city rather than just being imported in from Ireland for the job.
I am sure there is some reference to houses and living quarters in and around that part of Tollcross Road or Great Eastern Road as it was known as back then in Willox's book but no mention of the industrial dispute.
Many thanks for the CWGC photos. I am currently updating and modernising the Thistle and the Poppy section on here and any contribution to the War Memorials and Cemeteries will be gratefully received.
You have set me a task now so I will see what I can come up with in the Mitchell Library re the 'Scabby Lawn'.
|
|
|
Post by Waverley on Sept 22, 2009 7:25:29 GMT 1
PS. Anthony we would need to eastablish when the 'Scabby Loan' incident took place before we could link the men into the Parkhead Model...which would've been built to accommodate the migrants workers who came to the area seeking work in the nearby Forge. My Portadown born great granda and his family were listed as being in Ravel Row in the 1901 Census and my granda was born there in 1899.
|
|
|
Post by antsplan on Sept 22, 2009 22:11:48 GMT 1
Absolutely fantastic Charlie, this is very much appreciated. I played in that bit of land as a kid when another gran lived in Powfoot St.
Certainly all of my family still refer to it as that, but I wonder how many of them actually know its origins. This granny is my great granny, Martha Burns nee Dougan, married to John 'Jonnah' Burns. Martha is alive and well at 92 but sadly John is not.
Marthas daughter, is Anne Sinclair (my granny) married to a well known family from the Parkhead/Bridgeton area - the Sinclairs, my granda is Walter 'Wattie' Sinclair and his brother Shuey Sinclair (owned Sinkys Pool hall and laterally the Forge MOT station).
I had not contemplated at all that the labourers were already resident in Glasgow, somehow I thought of guys being shipped in, but of course it could have been many of the Irish already in Glasgow at the time. Apologies my reference to the Free State assumed the building was erected post the 1920Government of Ireland Act/1922 Irish Free State Act. I'll need to chin the guy for who told me about the religions etc, for more info or his source. Like much of the stuff assumed, it's likely mince.
I am not aware of Willox's book but will keep an eye out for it.
Re CWGC graves, you are most welcome, they are practically on my doorstep and to think that someone may get someone searching for a grave of a loved one may get some benefit from my snaps, is very pleasing, especially seeing as how some sources are charging for thsi info. I'll keep posting as I get time and am happy to go get photos from anywhere else nearby that you require - just let me know.
Thank you once again for your help, your a gent and I'll still gladly hear from anyone else who has any further info to add.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2009 22:14:00 GMT 1
Dae ah no get commission fur referrin Antsplan tae the Keelies board, Charlie? ;D
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Nov 1, 2009 11:56:21 GMT 1
I put this photo on before but I think this is a better copy and in the right thread now. The wee boy at the front with the coat on is my cousin. the taller girl with the ribbon in her hair and eyes closed on the left is my aunt and the blonde girl on the far left with the ribbon in her hair I think this is antsplan's granny. Photo was taken at the scabby lawn around the late 1940's. Adaline
|
|
|
Post by Waverley on Nov 1, 2009 12:01:57 GMT 1
Excellent stuff Adaline...I really need to get talking to some of my auld yins to see what they remember about the Scabby Loan/Lawn.
|
|
|
Post by Waverley on Nov 1, 2009 12:04:27 GMT 1
Dae ah no get commission fur referrin Antsplan tae the Keelies board, Charlie? ;D I widnae say to much aboot that BD...you might get barred fae the ither site for 'poaching'.
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Nov 1, 2009 12:06:17 GMT 1
This photo was taken about 27 years ago. It's my mammy with her mammy and sisters who all grew up in the scabby lawn. From left to right: My aunt Ellen, my mammy Margaret, my granny Mary, my aunt May and my aunt Sadie, sadly my aunt May is the only one left. I will treasure this photo for the rest of my life. Adaline
|
|
|
Post by robertstewart on Nov 4, 2009 0:30:29 GMT 1
I put this photo on before but I think this is a better copy and in the right thread now. The wee boy at the front with the coat on is my cousin. the taller girl with the ribbon in her hair and eyes closed on the left is my aunt and the blonde girl on the far left with the ribbon in her hair I think this is antsplan's granny. Photo was taken at the scabby lawn around the late 1940's. Adaline Adeline You are spot on with Antsplan gran (my mother in law Nan Sinclair). Her brother James is also in there second from the left in front of her. Will show her photo and hopefuly get more names.
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Nov 4, 2009 21:23:01 GMT 1
Hi Robert, that would be great if Nan could put names to faces.
Adaline
|
|
|
Post by robertstewart on Nov 11, 2009 23:31:53 GMT 1
Adeline, Nan can name all in photo, your aunt Ellen included. Will get list off her over the weekend.
Bobby
|
|
|
Post by Waverley on Nov 15, 2009 23:58:26 GMT 1
Good for you Bobby. This is the sort of thing we want on the board the rediscovering and recording of the social history of long forgoten photographs of the area and most importantly 'remembering' the unsung heroes of the east end the Maws and Da's who struggled to raise their families in harsh and often deprived living conditions and lack of social amenities.
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Nov 16, 2009 19:01:04 GMT 1
Charlie is this photo old enough, this is my grandparents (well I'm assuming it's my granda) this must have been taken before 1926 as my granda died of pnuemonia 4 months before my mammy was born, they only had been married for about 5 years and their third daughter on the way when he died, his name was Tobias Murphy and he was a miner, my granny Mary Murphy nee Hamilton was left to bring up their girls on her own, then 8 years later she gave birth to another daughter and was left to bring her up on her own again. What a hard life my granny had there was no benefits then and she had to work hard to keep her girls, my mammy and her sisters always spoke of their upbringing and always spoke of the happy childhood they had growing up in the scabby lawn. The other couple in the photo are my granny's sister Nellie and her husband, auntie Nellie had the wee fruit shop in Tollcross Rd at the scabby lawn. My grandparents are on the left of the photo.
|
|
|
Post by Waverley on Nov 16, 2009 21:47:19 GMT 1
Charlie is this photo old enough, this is my grandparents (well I'm assuming it's my granda) this must have been taken before 1926 as my granda died of pnuemonia 4 months before my mammy was born, they only had been married for about 5 years and their third daughter on the way when he died, his name was Tobias Murphy and he was a miner, my granny Mary Murphy nee Hamilton was left to bring up their girls on her own, then 8 years later she gave birth to another daughter and was left to bring her up on her own again. What a hard life my granny had there was no benefits then and she had to work hard to keep her girls, my mammy and her sisters always spoke of their upbringing and always spoke of the happy childhood they had growing up in the scabby lawn. The other couple in the photo are my granny's sister Nellie and her husband, auntie Nellie had the wee fruit shop in Tollcross Rd at the scabby lawn. My grandparents are on the left of the photo. Adaline hen a good contribution to the board and an excellent story of Parkhead life. Apart from the photo the story is worth researching as it gives us an insight into the fact that strong healthy men were dying in the 1920's with Spanish Flu and other epidemics...and it happened to my Granny who also lost her first husband through pnuemonia and left a widow with two young daughters to rear. Excellent post Adaline. PS I haven't forgotten your photograph of the London Road.
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Nov 16, 2009 23:17:21 GMT 1
I certainly don't mind Tam thankyou.
Thanks Charlie I was wondering what happened to the London Rd photo, are you posting it on the board.
Adaline
|
|
|
Post by robertstewart on Nov 17, 2009 0:01:43 GMT 1
I put this photo on before but I think this is a better copy and in the right thread now. The wee boy at the front with the coat on is my cousin. the taller girl with the ribbon in her hair and eyes closed on the left is my aunt and the blonde girl on the far left with the ribbon in her hair I think this is antsplan's granny. Photo was taken at the scabby lawn around the late 1940's. Adaline Back row from the left Margaret Mc.inch, Ellen Murphy,(Adeline's Aunt) Agnes Morgan, Marie Mc.Narlane Alex Lynn (baby) Wull Mathieson, Gibby Mc.Narlane & Robert Tipping. 3rd row. Nan Burns, Wee Nan Burns(cousins), Nan Ferrol, Robert Mc. Narlane, Jerry Mc.Lervie & Andy Mc.Farlane 2nd row. Tommy Burns & James Burns(Nan's brother). Front row. Danny Tipping, Jim Burns, Elizabeth Gunn & George Mc.Narlane Hope this can be of use. Bobby
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Nov 17, 2009 0:09:31 GMT 1
Thanks Bobby that's great, I've heard a few of the names before from my mammy speaking about the Scabby lawn although I don't know them in person.
Adaline
Meant to say Jim Burns in the front that's my cousin, he's my mammy's oldest sister Sadie's son.
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Nov 17, 2009 19:57:54 GMT 1
Hi Bobby could you ask Nan if Tommy Burns on the 2nd row of the photo is from her side or if he's my cousin (Jim Burns) on the front row's brother.
Adaline
|
|
|
Post by robertstewart on Nov 17, 2009 21:14:36 GMT 1
Hi Adeline. Tommy is Jim's brother.
Bobby
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Nov 17, 2009 23:30:04 GMT 1
Thanks Bobby, Tommy died 2 years ago, he was the eldest of my auntie Sadie's family, the eldest of 11 of them.
Adaline
|
|
|
Post by Waverley on Oct 20, 2013 13:20:38 GMT 1
Adaline I am in contact with Rab Winning and we are both discussing 'the Scabby Loan' and an opening which was called 'the duggie'. Rab has some drawings of the original buildings and I have maps of the area but they seem to be at cross purposes. Do you actually remember the buildings that were there when you were growing up...
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Oct 20, 2013 22:43:11 GMT 1
Sorry Charlie I don't remember as the family all moved to Easterhouse when I was only 3 but maybe some of my cousins will remember I'll try and get you some info.
Adaline
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Oct 22, 2013 23:06:16 GMT 1
Charlie I have an old photo taken at the corner of Crail St and Tollcross Rd when it was called Great. Eastern Rd you can see the buildings but unfortunately it stops just short of the scabby lawn it is sealed in a frame but if it helps in anyway you can borrow it. I think there might have been a few copies of it so you might even have it. It belonged to my mother.
Adaline
|
|
patrick
Full Member
Patrick, the 'Tic Man"
Posts: 2,290
|
Post by patrick on Oct 30, 2013 17:24:00 GMT 1
I had an old uncle lived there Adaline, his name was Jimmy Cooper, I cant remember what number it was but it was near the wee fruit shop, he was a roofer and he had some cats he loved his cats my dad used to take me up to see him that was in the late 50s.
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Oct 31, 2013 23:23:24 GMT 1
Sadly Patrick all my Mammy' s family have all gone now so I can't ask if they knew him but maybe some of my older cousin's would I'll try and remember to ask them the next time I see them.
Adaline
|
|
patrick
Full Member
Patrick, the 'Tic Man"
Posts: 2,290
|
Post by patrick on Nov 2, 2013 0:34:16 GMT 1
thank you Adaline.x
|
|
patrick
Full Member
Patrick, the 'Tic Man"
Posts: 2,290
|
Post by patrick on Nov 23, 2014 12:13:17 GMT 1
looking at your photo of all the kids again adaline,
I remember Alex Lynn, I knew his brother john Lynn better, he was around the same age as me i also remember Wull Mathieson, The burns family do you know if any of them lived on Malcolm St in the early 60s?
|
|
|
Post by adaline on Dec 16, 2014 12:59:28 GMT 1
looking at your photo of all the kids again adaline, I remember Alex Lynn, I knew his brother john Lynn better, he was around the same age as me i also remember Wull Mathieson, The burns family do you know if any of them lived on Malcolm St in the early 60s? Hi Patrick just seen your post..there were lots of Burns families in Parkhead with no connection the 2 Burns families in the photo are not connected..Tommy and Jim Burns in the photo are my cousins i do know they didn't have family in Malcolm St I am almost certain that Nan and James Burns didn't have any either..
|
|
patrick
Full Member
Patrick, the 'Tic Man"
Posts: 2,290
|
Post by patrick on Dec 21, 2014 15:27:58 GMT 1
ok Adeline.x
|
|